Fundie Democrats...

Kizzume · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 6:16 pm Post subject: Fundie Democrats...

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/files/DAVIS.mp3 (EDITED to be a link instead of embedded so it doesn't play automatically EVERY time the thread is accessed)

http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/news_columnists_ezorn/2008/04/rep-monique-dav.html

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

Sounds to me like she's overreacting quite strongly. When I was in high school about 25 of us gathered around the flagpole everyday to pray in public before school started. No one ever tried to stop us. They couldn't. Kids can pray in school. Should the government enforce it? Absolutely not. The day kids are forbidden to pray in school is the day this country REALLY starts to collapse. You can't have tolerance for some religions and not others.

Kizzume · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:13 pm Post subject:

I totally agree with you there, but there is another side of the coin--the day that forced prayer of ONE set religion is in public schools is the day that this country really starts to collapse in a completely different way.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

Truly. But that will never happen.

Kizzume · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:55 pm Post subject:

I don't think the opposite will happen either, at least I HOPE it won't.

debateman · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 349 Location: New Mexico

I think the trend has clearly been anti-Christian. Not that there are some areas where religion shouldn't have ventured to begin with, but I think that removing the ten commandments from a building or blah blah blah is just too much. If you don't believe it, it shouldn't matter. If you do believe it, you will likely find it in the spirit of the law. Regardless, the pendulum has swung too far on this issue, and those of us who respect a line between church and state need to realize that the pendulum swings both directions.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

Kizzume · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:50 pm Post subject:

Kizzume · Posted: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:56 pm Post subject:

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

And all the stores saying "happy holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas"? Is that anti-pagan? No. It was an assault on a FEDERAL HOLIDAY. Yes, the tree and egg thing is not so much Christian as is it Pagan. But the there is no anti-pagan movement in this country that I see. That's the weird thing about America is that it is more religious than many countries, but also more paganism orientated than many countries.

Kizzume · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:40 pm Post subject:

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

Let me ask you this. Why was this never a problem 15-20 years ago? What has happened since then that has made this a big deal? 20 years ago not everyone was Christian. If you review news and youtube videos, you'll see that it was a pretty big deal and people were PASSIONATE about it not happening. On both sides. It was assaultive. On both sides. Heck, Sears changed their banner back to Merry Christmas because of the beef. The airports took out the Christmas trees, but the Hari Krishna can stay?! I've said it before and I'll say it again, (and you have as well) You CANNOT give rights to some religions and not others. Yes, Christmas trees are pagan, but as you said, Christianity adopted them and are related to by them Where's this anti-pagan movement? Surely not in Hollywood or the media (two of the most influential powers that exist in America). Surely not Robertson alone. The guy doesn't have as much power as you seem to make him out to have (thankfully). Should Christians have special rights around the end of December. No. It's a FEDERAL holiday. Get it changed, then the issue becomes about Christians. Or course, Christmas wasn't always a federal holiday. So maybe we can change it back. Like the money.

technocrat · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 216

I can understand wanting to be as generic as possible in a pluralistic society. It encompasses as many people as possible by not assuming they're a particular religion or that they've got any religion at all. "Happy Holidays" is neutral. It covers believers of all types who might have holidays and those who do not celebrate any religious holiday specifically. It honours the federal holiday as well. It's not really that big of a deal to complain bout. It's not some big conspiracy against Christians, as some seem to think. It's practical.

I don't see why anyone should ban painting easter egs. That's silly. It's just cultural traditional that's harmless and has little to do with being religious. There are no religions I know of where a magic pink bunny hops along, hides eggs and candy for distribution to kids. It's like halloween: a corporate money-making holiday (just like Christmas). It's when we all go out and buy shit we don't need and give it to people who want it.

As for prayer in school, sure, you can do it as long as it doesn't force anyone else to do it, disturb class, or as long as it's not sponsored by the school. You can pray inp rivate all you like, to yourself, on before school.

Kizzume · Posted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:13 pm Post subject:

Yes, Sears changed it back because a bunch of fundies (especially Pat Robertson--I remember turning on the 700 club just to see what they were blabbering on about and wondering what the heck he was on when he was talking about Christianity being "assaulted") got their panties in a bind who were threatening to boycott, and Sears didn't want to lose customers, especially since they switched to "happy holidays" out of trying to GAIN more customers in the first place.

15-20 years ago.

But if you look back 50 years ago, forced prayer in schools was a normal thing, where the teacher could lead a classroom in a prayer. What happened in the following years that made THAT such a horrible thing? The answer is simple--people who weren't Christian started to speak up about how they felt about everyone assuming that they're Christian.

If you look 100 years ago, a number of laws were still on the books that enforced Biblical law. If you look back 200 years ago, women couldn't vote and slavery was still legal. So no, 15-20 years ago, people weren't nearly as concerned over not offending religions outside Christianity as they are now.

Your airport example doesn't exactly work: The Hari Krishna aren't putting up huge decorations, they're practicing their beliefs. They're wearing what their religion says that they should wear, and they're doing what their religion says they should do. They're not officially sanctioned by the airports to "be there for people", Christmas decorations ARE officially designated. I think taking down Christmas decorations is SILLY, but I don't take it as "an assault on Christianity".

I agree that the different religions should be treated equally.

To answer the assumed question you are asking: Yes, I think that Christianity is being picked on more than other religions. That is primarily because it is the most popular/common religion in this country and makes the easiest target in this country. I think it's unfortunate that it has become this way, but in order to make sure that church and state are separate, sometimes things have to be done that are temporarily uncomfortable for those that are religious. I think it's good that people are trying to make sure that doesn't go too far, because there needs to be checks and balances.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 413

I didn't know that Robertson used the word assault. Kinda makes me wish I didn't use it. I really don't believe that Christianity should be forced anywhere within government or otherwise, and my record speaks to that time and time again. But I don't like the whole FFR (Freedom From Religion) propaganda that really has no merit and seems to be getting more and more widespread. As far as your examples of long ago, I don't view getting away from religion at all the same as the liberation of women being able to vote or slavery being outlawed.