"hate speech" and religion

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:55 pm Post subject: "hate speech" and religion

Whether people want to admit it or not, there is a push for everyone to be secular. It is scaring the crap out of those who hold their religious beliefs very dear.

The easiest examples I can mention is the way that many of the hundreds of religions that are based on either the Bible or the Koran believe that homosexuality is-wrong/is-sinful/is-an-abomination.

?Hate speech? is what any speech about one?s beliefs in those areas is starting to get called. Because of this, whole religions are getting equated as ?hateful?. Some of these people that are getting labeled ?hateful? don?t have a hateful bone in their body, well, okay?the hateful bones they have are dried twigs. The only time those hateful bones are ever even noticed is when they start to get labeled ?hateful? simply out of believing in a religion.

Before I start to get labeled poorly?let me say that I wish that ogrganized religion would just magically disappear. I personally think that people who consider themselves to be very religious and don?t mind talking about the wrath of God? on a normal basis who believe they have the right to tell everyone how to live DO cause most of the world?s problems.

Before it seems like I?m trying to talk about anything that goes on in Kizzume Forum?this has NOTHING to do with what I see on this forum. This is purely what I see in other places and the reactions of people, people?s timidness in even mentioning their religion because they?re scared of being judged.

Walking around being scared of being judged just because of a belief that you have must not be a very comfortable thing at all. I imagine it must be absolutely horrible. I imagine it must be the way I felt about being gay before I came out and for years afterwards.

The thing that worries me about this kind of thing, and ? of the reason why I?m posting it, is because if we push too hard in one direction, it?s a pendulum, and it?s eventually going to kick everyone in the ass.

The other half of the reason I?m posting this is that for some reason I started thinking about what I used to get told in Sunday school, ?There are people that are going to hate you simply because you believe in Jesus. Don?t let it get to you.? I never really remember people judging me over it?although I did get judged by the way I acted?always trying to be the good kid who?s a tattletale because that?s what was right in my mind at the time. I didn?t need to give that much detail?sorry. Okay Kizzume, the backspace key DOES work?? anyway?now that I look at the way things have changed, I?m starting to see how timid some people still are about their beliefs. I don?t think people should have to feel that way.

What is it that we can do to make religious people not feel as much that way? I know it could be just their nervous condition and I?m seeing it because I have a nervous condition, one of those it takes one to know one things, but I really think that this has increased over the years. How can we make them feel less persecuted?

I have been guilty many times in my past of saying truly awful things about religious people as a whole, and I regret that a lot. Just as religious people may feel that being gay is a sin, I feel that religious people thinking their way is the ONLY way is foolish?if I expect them to not smear those aspects of their religion in my face to make ME feel bad about the way I believe (because I believe that being gay is a normal thing and that I mostly was born that way?that?s MY belief, almost religious belief in a way), how can I be hypocritical and smear the way I feel about their religion in their face? Isn?t it the same thing?
? Last Edit: Nov 9, 2007, 1:05pm by Kizzume ?

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 396

If others thought like you, the world would be transformed. Not trying to pump your ego up, just saying that you are an open-minded person and that's cool. I have known a lot of gay people that prance all over with a bogus "Be open minded" campaign when wanting Joe Straight Man to accept their pink heels and wigs, all the while despising and loathing any religion, just out of the rudimentary mindset of "you're against me, so I'm against you". Excellent post.

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject:

Right on

I just wonder still--is there something that can be done to make it so religious people don't feel persecuted, or is this a pretty big mess that there's no real answer for?

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject:

Well, one thing's for sure--it's hard for one to not feel persecuted when there are some around who treat religion so poorly.

debateman · Joined: 05 Dec 2007 Posts: 349 Location: New Mexico

The persecution that is exchanged between religion and homosexuality is generally a two way street. it's rare that one side 'prances' off alone. The concept of 'hate the sin, love the sinner' starts with hate. If you have a starting point that is based in hate, you automatically have issues. And homosexuals make the assumption that this is the primary thought of all Christians and thus pre-judge the whole lot.

Reconciling Christianity and homosexuality took me at least 7 years. Standing between worlds 'gay' and 'God' has been a huge issue for me in the past and brought flack from both sides. This flack continues today, but now I am better prepared to address the concerns of each.

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject:

The whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing is somewhat disingenuous, but I know that many Christians don't really feel that way--many of them state that God is the only one that can make those kinds of judgments, and that they themselves have no right to make those kinds of judgments. That seems pretty fair to me, unless they interject that whole "love the sinner" thing--then it honestly seems false.

jq · Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Posts: 1088

Nov 14, 2007, 3:11am, Kizzume wrote:[quote[
The whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" thing is somewhat disingenuous, but I know that many Christians don't really feel that way--many of them state that God is the only one that can make those kinds of judgments, and that they themselves have no right to make those kinds of judgments. That seems pretty fair to me, unless they interject that whole "love the sinner" thing--then it honestly seems false.[/quote[
Well, it isn't supposed to be disingenuous, just as it is said in the Bible "Judge and you will be judged," but what I find with people of any faith, as well as people who are atheist or agnostic is, they tend to personalize the institutions they are a part of, and that personalizing process, based on the individual, is often not representative of the faith, institution, etc. Long story short we find that individuals often break their own codes, but that doesn't mean that those original codes are necessarily disingenuous.

Me, I have known people from both camps in terms of "hating the sin" or "hating the sinner." I have known Christians who seem VERY judgmental of persons, and I have known Christians who are very, very reluctant, to make any kind of judgment on anyone. But the faith and the code really says not to hate the person from what I can tell. (Though I wouldn't be surprised if there were places in the old testament that may say otherwise, I am confident that Jesus never spoke of hating anyone's person, but rather, helping them overcome their sin.)

Nov 14, 2007, 3:04am, debateman wrote:

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject:

I really like this thread. JQ--your response was fantastic.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 396

Well, I'm going to post this only because I see it so MANY times with scripture, or in this case, lack of scripture. "Hate the sin, love the sinner. - Mahatma Gandhi. Nowhere will you find this passage in the Bible. It's worse than the whole "Money is the root of all evil" stuff that people claim is scripture.

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject:

Thanks for that. I had never actually looked it up--I had always made assumptions about that. That is VERY good to know.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 396

It's very common. People with opinions based on scripture that doesn't exist or has been twisted up over the years, only have that opinion based on what others tell them to think. It's not really fair that people judge the Bible and Christianity based on nothing, or even worse, take at face value the word of another, but I'm pretty sure God expected it would happen, since it is so common.

2 Timothy 2:15 - Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. (NAS)

Kizzume · Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:03 pm Post subject:

One of the mistakes I often make is that I assume that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to religion because I was raised so religiously--but I've been away from religion for so long, the things I noticed as a kid are NOT going to be the things that are as important when I'm an adult. I need to remind myself of this more often.

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 396

Yeah, that happens quite a bit as well. One thing to consider though, is the source of that "religious upbringing". You have to look at the people who are responsible for your ideology and ask yourself if they bear fruit worthy of spiritualness that is good today. If not, perhaps they were ill-based in their "walk" with God. It can be difficult to determine if that was correct or based on other misconceptions, especially if you are an observer in trying to decipher the things of God. As I've posted before, "But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised."
1 Cor. 2:14

jq · Joined: 02 Dec 2007 Posts: 1088

Nov 14, 2007, 2:41pm, Hackfest wrote:

Hackfest · Joined: 04 Dec 2007 Posts: 396

Nov 14, 2007, 3:52pm, jq wrote: