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debateman
Joined: 05 Dec 2007
Posts: 349
Location: New Mexico
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 Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Yes yes, those darned Native Americans. A pain in our side since day one really. We should be super proud of them. We spent years trying to 'civilize' them and all those years have paid off. They've embraced the right to self determination and democracy provides. They've educated themselves and become complicit to Anglo rule. We've made them just like us, now it's time for them to do their own thing. Just like it was our time to break from England, you know, that time we were stealing all of the Native lands, it's time for them to overthrow the chains of oppression.
They should take the US for everything it's got, not because I am anti-US, but because I am of the theory that the only reason those lands have the type of development on it is because we STOLE it. If justice is to be served, it certainly falls on their side.
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Segep
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:57 pm Post subject: |
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| technocrat wrote: |
That is hardly comparable given the people of New Orleans don't get massive welfare subsidies, tax deductions, educational and social programmes deliberately geared for them consistently and into perpetuity. |
First of all, have you ever tried to support a family on welfare? These people ain't driving BMW's, trust me. Education is often the closest public school, and in obscure rural areas, most public schools lack the funding to provide as much as bigger schools. Social programs are handled by both the Tribe and the Federal government, because the third world poverty level causes more social problems than either entity could handle on its own.
Secondly, they were guaranteed quality health care, education, hunting and fishing rights, etc. into perpetuity by treaties negotiated by agents of the U.S. Government and ratified by Congress. And in all the years since the People of the United States, through their agents in Congress, promised the Indians these things in exchange for ceding millions of acres of land to U.S. settlers, the People of the United States have steadily gone back on their promises, while insisting that the Indians uphold theirs. In the old days, Whitey would go on a good 'ol fashion injun killin' spree whenever He felt that even one Indian had transgressed against Him somehow.
You say this isn't your problem or your fault. You say all that stuff happened before you were born, so you can't be held responsible. I'm calling bullshit. It's the same U.S. Government, the same Constitution, the same structure of Government that makes it possible for you to have enough disposable income and leisure time to enjoy posting on political forums. It's the same U.S. Government that still can't manage to provide decent health care and food (have you ever had commods?) to so many desperately poor people stuck in the middle of nowhere with no education and no place to go. Who's Government is it? It's YOUR Goverment. It's MY Government. It's OUR Government. We are every one of us sharing in the responsibility right now for ongoing treaty violations.
You say sure they could go somewhere, they should leave the rez. Sure. No problem. Tell me something, just how easy do you think it is to pick up your entire family and move to the expensive city when you have no savings, no assets, little education, no technical skills, and no investments? How easy is it for [/i]anyone[/i] to do that even when their economic status is comfortably middle class? You say OK, then instead of giving them money, we should pay to ship them off to the cities. Setting aside for the moment the disturbing notion of moving an entire People around like livestock (but then again there IS precedent, isn't there?), I can tell you that it still won't work. It's been done already. If you want to talk seriously about Native American issues, you should really do your homework and look this stuff up.
| technocrat wrote: | | If the Lakota spent half as much time modernizing and working instead of pining for the past and blaming the "White Man," they would probably be well-off like many other tribes are. |
This one is so outrageous I don't even know where to begin, so I won't.
| technocrat wrote: | | I do feel sorry for the Indians. |
Great. That's just what they need. Condescension and pity from someone who doesn't know anything about their culture or their past or even their present. Go Whitey.
| technocrat wrote: | I just think they are going about fixing their problem the wrong way, and this is a poorly thought out political move. Their tribal government is milking the people and using Whitey as the target to maintain the power grab. They need to get off that reservation if there is literally nothing there to work with and abandon the past. The government should cut off all ties with the reservation and give them incentives, economic aid to establish themselves in cities. The worst thing the White Man has done was turn them into permanent ueber welfare dependents, while their tribal governments piss away much of the money given to them.
This is the land they want to take: they're simply unreasonable and nuts. They want to swipe trillions of dollar worth of built-up land, urban developments. There are military bases, armouries, etc on that land.
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Sounds like the White Man's Burden to me. So let me get this straight. We took away their land, the best resources, and in some cases even their children. Now you want them to give up the only thing they have left, their culture and past? See, that's the problem with Whitey. He's never satisfied with His share. He always wants just a little more, and a little more, and a little more until He has the whole thing before anyone realizes it.
And the Sioux have finally gotten sick of it enough to stand up and give the collective finger to Uncle Sam. While I question the timing (Supreme Court decisions last longer than fruitcake), I can't fault their spirit. Go Sioux!!!!
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Kizzume
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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Location: Tacoma, WA USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:29 am Post subject: |
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That was a really good post Coyote.
Technocrat, I really need to ask you--how many natiive Americans who still have kept part of their culture have you known personally, on a level beyond mere small talk, like friends, or at least someone you've had a decent conversation with? I'm guessing 0, but I may be wrong. I've known 3 in this manner--not a huge number, but enough.
If they're wanting to secede from the union, and they want to live their own way, why does it bother you so much? Why do natives bother you so much? The natives aren't the ones acting like savages--the gang members and gangster wannabes are, so why this negativity? Or is it because they don't act like savages that you think that makes it all that much more of a thing where they should integrate into society "that much easier"?
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Segep
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
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BTW, in the interests of full disclosure I am not Indian, but Whitey (Woo'gey) and I have shamelessly exploited a piece of Native culture with my username. 
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jq
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 1088
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:58 am Post subject: |
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| debateman wrote: | Yes yes, those darned Native Americans. A pain in our side since day one really. We should be super proud of them. We spent years trying to 'civilize' them and all those years have paid off. They've embraced the right to self determination and democracy provides. They've educated themselves and become complicit to Anglo rule. We've made them just like us, now it's time for them to do their own thing. Just like it was our time to break from England, you know, that time we were stealing all of the Native lands, it's time for them to overthrow the chains of oppression.
They should take the US for everything it's got, not because I am anti-US, but because I am of the theory that the only reason those lands have the type of development on it is because we STOLE it. If justice is to be served, it certainly falls on their side. |
AMEN
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Kizzume
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:06 am Post subject: |
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| debateman wrote: | Yes yes, those darned Native Americans. A pain in our side since day one really. We should be super proud of them. We spent years trying to 'civilize' them and all those years have paid off. They've embraced the right to self determination and democracy provides. They've educated themselves and become complicit to Anglo rule. We've made them just like us, now it's time for them to do their own thing. Just like it was our time to break from England, you know, that time we were stealing all of the Native lands, it's time for them to overthrow the chains of oppression.
They should take the US for everything it's got, not because I am anti-US, but because I am of the theory that the only reason those lands have the type of development on it is because we STOLE it. If justice is to be served, it certainly falls on their side. |
I'm going to have to agree with you on this as well.
In my comments about the land earlier, I guess I was just trying to grasp at anything I could possibly agree with Technocrat on this issue on, but I guess I don't even agree on that really.
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Segep
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 219
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:24 am Post subject: |
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| debateman wrote: | Yes yes, those darned Native Americans. A pain in our side since day one really. We should be super proud of them. We spent years trying to 'civilize' them and all those years have paid off. They've embraced the right to self determination and democracy provides. They've educated themselves and become complicit to Anglo rule. We've made them just like us, now it's time for them to do their own thing. Just like it was our time to break from England, you know, that time we were stealing all of the Native lands, it's time for them to overthrow the chains of oppression.
They should take the US for everything it's got, not because I am anti-US, but because I am of the theory that the only reason those lands have the type of development on it is because we STOLE it. If justice is to be served, it certainly falls on their side. |
This post is... fabulous! 
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jq
Joined: 02 Dec 2007
Posts: 1088
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:25 am Post subject: |
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I was the first to point it out, so nenar nenar nannegoat!
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technocrat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 216
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
First of all, have you ever tried to support a family on welfare? These people ain't driving BMW's, trust me. Education is often the closest public school, and in obscure rural areas, most public schools lack the funding to provide as much as bigger schools. Social programs are handled by both the Tribe and the Federal government, because the third world poverty level causes more social problems than either entity could handle on its own.
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Who said they are living in luxury? I think the gist of my post claims just the opposite. Is this some type of canned response? What I said is that they are one of the only groups to get perma-welfare and still are doing nothing. They, despite countless opportunities, choose not to take it, instead electing corrupt tribal governments that get into office by blaming the white man (telling them what they want to hear) while misusing funds. Over 25% of Native Americans live at or below the poverty line, and reservations continue to have high unemployment. This isn't necessary, and it's partly their own doing, not whitey to blame.
I support[u] social programmes and welfare. I don't think it's working with their governments. The welfare needs to be cut off from their governments and they need to be encouraged to relocate, get jobs with incentives to abandon their decaying reservations. They are stuck in a rut. OTHER tribes are fully able to take advantage of the welfare, lift themselves up, and make something of themselves. Yet many of them sit around, do nothing, and continue to collect large welfare payments while pretending they are independent, sovereign nations. They are not. They are dependents who suck massive amounts of funding.
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Secondly, they were guaranteed quality health care, education, hunting and fishing rights, etc. into perpetuity by treaties negotiated by agents of the U.S. Government and ratified by Congress. And in all the years since the People of the United States, through their agents in Congress, promised the Indians these things in exchange for ceding millions of acres of land to U.S. settlers, the People of the United States have steadily gone back on their promises, while insisting that the Indians uphold theirs. In the old days, Whitey would go on a good 'ol fashion injun killin' spree whenever He felt that even one Indian had transgressed against Him somehow.
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That they were promised in the past doesn't mean we ought to continue to keep them welfare dependents with unlimited welfare payments and privileges. Hell, we never kept treaties before, why start now. Move them off. Anyway, I don't see how this is relevant to now. They are harming themselves through blaming whitey for their own problems and choosing poorly. The only thing worse are "ganstas" from the Urban Ghetto on the whiny bitch scale.
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You say this isn't your problem or your fault. You say all that stuff happened before you were born, so you can't be held responsible. I'm calling bullshit. It's the same U.S. Government, the same Constitution, the same structure of Government that makes it possible for you to have enough disposable income and leisure time to enjoy posting on political forums. It's the same U.S. Government that still can't manage to provide decent health care and food (have you ever had commods?) to so many desperately poor people stuck in the middle of nowhere with no education and no place to go. Who's Government is it? It's YOUR Goverment. It's MY Government. It's OUR Government. We are every one of us sharing in the responsibility right now for ongoing treaty violations. |
It isn't my fault. It's hardly bullshit. They aren't Sitting Bull, and I am not Custer. The Current United States Government isn't the evil maurauders, and this ain't the 19th century, as much as they want to pretend it is so they can milk the future for money we don't really have. We give them ample resources, and yet...they are still in poverty. What do they do? BLAME WHITEY! It's getting old. In fact, some of them hate white people so much, they want to break off! Ya know what? Let em. When they collapse and beg to return, I'll be laughing my ass off.
Blaming people into perpetuity for what people over 150 years ago did to people who aren't alive today is absurd. Given that logic, we should continually pay reparations to every possible group that got screwed in history. Ridiculous. I am Irish. I want British reparations for the Great Famine they caused. Oops, but I ain't gonna. Cause I can't blame Whitey and I am not a minority.
Again, Indians do not need to stay on reservations, and they could leave. What the State ought to do is encourage movement off the reservations and give Indians free education and funding to move elsewhere. Eliminate tribal "sovereignty" and the endless welfare teat for doing nothing, and assimilate them.
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You say sure they could go somewhere, they should leave the rez. Sure. No problem. Tell me something, just how easy do you think it is to pick up your entire family and move to the expensive city when you have no savings, no assets, little education, no technical skills, and no investments? How easy is it for [/i]anyone[/i] to do that even when their economic status is comfortably middle class? You say OK, then instead of giving them money, we should pay to ship them off to the cities. Setting aside for the moment the disturbing notion of moving an entire People around like livestock (but then again there IS precedent, isn't there?), I can tell you that it still won't work. It's been done already. If you want to talk seriously about Native American issues, you should really do your homework and look this stuff up.
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Refer to the above. I do know about Native American History. The entire problem was treating them as if they really were independent nations with bullshit treaties we had no intention of fulfilling. They were defeated. They lost. Get over it. Move on. We aren't in the 19th century.
Leaving the reservation and ending their continual welfare spin into perpetuity is the best thing for them. NO one said force them off or cart them off, as you indicated. I said give them incentives and a means (financial and educational) to leave. But nice try to distort what I said into making it seem like I was treating them like cattle, 19th century style.
| Quote: | | This one is so outrageous I don't even know where to begin, so I won't. |
It's outrageous that someone would dare say what must be said: the truth. They are whiny bitches who don't take advantage of opportunities given to them and would rather sit around whining about how evil and bad the White Man is, electing leaders who ironically mimic assholes like Al Sharpton who get power by directing irrational racial hatreds. Why is it that the Cabonaza and the Seminole are not poverty-ridden filth holes? Maybe...because they made better choices with what they were given and didn't pine for the rose-coloured past while blaming the people who give them money.
You pretend that I am advocating forcing them to move to cities, taking their children and sending them to some type of Carlisle school. No. I didn't say that. And yes, I am quite familiar with Indian history. Clearly, their reservation does not work. Clearly, they are no longer the fantasy that is the historical "Indian." Clearly, they need to go where there are opportunities, get education. That's why we ought to encourage them to dissolve, move to cities, establish Indian centres, while giving them free education and support until they get themselves established. Do not pay their tribal governments to do nothing.
| Quote: |
Sounds like the White Man's Burden to me. So let me get this straight. We took away their land, the best resources, and in some cases even their children. Now you want them to give up the only thing they have left, their culture and past? See, that's the problem with Whitey. He's never satisfied with His share. He always wants just a little more, and a little more, and a little more until He has the whole thing before anyone realizes it.
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Newslfash dude. The modern indian is nothing like the plains or woodland Indian. They aren't sitting around a wigwam or pueblo doing a sun dance in moccasins and deer skins. They are wearing modern clothes with modern names eating modern foods. Holy shit, the seminole [U] own the fucking Hard Rock Cafe! GOOD FOR THEM! That's what we should be seeing: the development of Indian cooperatives and corporations. I know a lot about Native History. The problem is that many modern histories dishonestly paint Indian History is "evil white man vs natural good Indians" while blaming whitey for everything that has ever gone wrong...forever. Get over it. We don't live in the 19th century, and they aren't 19th century Indians.
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technocrat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | That was a really good post Coyote.
Technocrat, I really need to ask you--how many natiive Americans who still have kept part of their culture have you known personally, on a level beyond mere small talk, like friends, or at least someone you've had a decent conversation with? I'm guessing 0, but I may be wrong. I've known 3 in this manner--not a huge number, but enough.
If they're wanting to secede from the union, and they want to live their own way, why does it bother you so much? Why do natives bother you so much? The natives aren't the ones acting like savages--the gang members and gangster wannabes are, so why this negativity? Or is it because they don't act like savages that you think that makes it all that much more of a thing where they should integrate into society "that much easier"? |
I don't care if they want to go do their own thing; but they don't. They want to whine, pine, and blame whitey while sucking up all the welfare and supports like two-faced little leeches. They will accept aid, but then backhand you by blaming you for everything. They hate you, don't really see themselves as American, and then lay the guilt trip on you so you keep shoveling money into their grossly incompetent, corrupt tribal government so they can claim how oppressed they are, how bad Whitey Is, and how they need to secede. It's ridiculous. It's about as bad as those ghetto ganstas who pin everything on White people instead of looking at themselves for a change.
Cosby is right on them, and the same thing applies to certain Indian Tribes. Other tribes are not like they are: they actually got their shit together.
Their whole secession is absurd. You can't tolerate secession, because it sets a dangerous precedent and they aren't independent nations anyway. They are US citizens, that is ultimately federal land we ALLOW them to pretend is theirs. It has been developed by trillions of dollars, and the old Lakota territory has federal, state property all throughout it, including cities. I am sure we are just going to allow them to waltz off with it because of what some people did to them in the 19th century. Guess what? It's the 21st now. How long will this charade continue?
Clearly, the current system is not working. We have turned them into welfare dependent zombie morons. It's not working. That is what happens when you give people permanent (unending) entitlements and do nothing else. They can just take it, do nothing, and well...that's that! We just keep funneling money into useless bullshit that doesn't work, doesn't actually help them. They are STILL in poverty with over 25% at the poverty line or below. Some reservations have almost 50% unemployment! They just sit around getting a welfare check. It's not entirely the case that they cannot, as some reservations have developed reservation schools that are pretty successful. It depends on how their tribal governments USE the money. Some tribes have pissed it away.
They would be better off leaving the reservation, with supports of course, and getting opportunities elsewhere. Some reservations are just in shitty locations without much there. The solution? Um. Don't say there! Need help moving? Ok.
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technocrat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
Posts: 216
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:00 pm Post subject: |
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Where is all the money going? What are they doing with it? Don't pretend they don't get it? What happens? Why are they in such poverty still? Why is there such high unemployment? Why are they welfare bums who guzzle alcohol when there are abundant opportunities? Why do they pine about how bad the white man is, while taking his money and offerings? Why are they so bad when other tribes have chosen differently? If they are successful, is it due to us, or do we only get the bad shit to be responsible for all the time? Eh? Guess not. It's only fashionable to blame Whitey nowadays for all the world's problems, even when the people who are having the problem are partly to blame themselves.
I guess we ought to just keep funneling money into them, seeing it do absolutely nothing. THat's a great idea.
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Kizzume
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Joined: 31 Dec 1969
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:43 pm Post subject: |
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First off, the native tribes aren't violent. Yes, they've been mooching off the system after their culture was almost completely destroyed. Their only chance of really re-gaining that culture back is if they secede.
Gangs aren't the same--we didn't take their land.
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technocrat
Joined: 04 Dec 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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I didn't say Natives were violent. I said the whiny groups who ignore their own poor choices and blame whitey for solidarity are a lot like the ghetto gansta culture. They are. They thrive on blaming others while ignoring their own actions that contribute to their problem. They're hung up on what happened in the mid 1800s and employ an entitlement mentality that prevents them from getting beyond the "blame whitey" syndrome.
They won't "gain" their culture if they secede. They aren't going go, and even if they did, it wouldn't help them. What they need to do is realize the past is gone, whitey is never going to disappear, and that that reservation is breeding crap. They need to be helped to leave, the dependency of the welfare reservation needs to end, and they need to take responsibility for their own choices instead of shifting the blame onto white people.
Their politicians on the reservation use the Great White Satan as a solidarity ploy to rile them up to get elected. It's getting old, as I said. Their government are not helping them, but rather pissing away their resources. If they stopped blaming the world and did something about it, they would be better of. That's why they need to leave the reservation and get the help they need to do so (funding, education, etc). Instead of just having an endless stream of welfare money so they can sit in poverty on worthless land in the middle of the wilderness.
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Kizzume
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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If they secede and end up dying horrible deaths because they couldn't manage their own communities, it's their own doing. If they seceded, we would have no obligations.
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Segep
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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| Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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Techno, you can't possibly know or understand a culture that is tied to the land by thousands of generations of ancestors. You know how sensitive this topic is for me. The only reason I haven't gone completely apeshit over some of the deeply offensive crap you've spouted in this thread is because I'm giving you the benefit of doubt in that I believe you are very passionate, but ignorant. While I understand and appreciate the joy of baiting someone, If you really want me to participate in this thread (I don't really care because you seem to me to have your mind made up about the subject), you'll tone it back a notch or two.
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